庐山童子
庐山童子 铁十字骑士
2013-12-21 21:19
7519 次阅读 14 条回复

非常严肃的问题:如何区分“格里木定律”和“傻大木”定律?语言交流

问题一:什么是格里木定律?
1819年,德国语言学家雅可布·格里木(J.Grimm,1787-1863)出版了《德语语法》(Deutsche Grammatik)一书,提出了格里木定律。他认为,日耳曼语与其它印欧语言,拉丁语、希腊语、梵语,之间存在着如下的语音对应规律:
1、日耳曼语中的f对应其他印欧语中的p;
2、日耳曼语中的p对应其他印欧语中的b;
3、日耳曼语中的θ对应其它印欧语中的t;
4、日耳曼语中的t对应于其他印欧语中的d;等等。
格里木定律与印欧语系理论之间是一种循环论证的关系:因为语音对应,所以这些语种源自同一母语——原始印欧语;因为它们源自同一母语,所以它们的语音对应。

问题二:什么是傻大木定律?
傻大木定律的提出者是本文作者傻大木,内容为:A语种的群体在学习B语种时必然呈现的习惯性以及规律性语音负迁移现象,同样会导致借词之间的规律性语音对应现象。
举例而言,日本人说中文有“日本腔”;美国人说汉语有“美国腔”;印度人说汉语有“印度腔”;就连新疆人说汉语也带“新疆腔”;这里的所谓“腔”,就是不同语种学习者之间的语音负迁移,把这种腔看成错误的话,也是一种规律性的、呈现工整对应的错误。
 
问题三:请问各位语言学达人,如何区分“格里木定律”和“傻大木定律”?
即如何判断两种语言之间的语音对应现象是先天同源后天分化的结果(格里木观点),还是先天异源后天互动的结果(傻大木观点)?
 
最后,顺便罗列一下所谓的历史语言比较法以及印欧语系的“荒谬性”。
1、他们武断地把语音对应现象等同于同源关系;
试问,今天的汉语和英语的借词及借词语音对应,如巴士和bus,史密斯和Smith,就不会发生在过去的法语和英语、英语和印地语之间吗?
2、他们主观地、选择性的进行少数所谓同源词语音对比,刻意回避更多的词汇之间的语音不对称现象,这是严重违反了科学研究中的客观性原则。
3、循环论证。
4、两面手法:语音论据不足时调用语法证据,语法证据不足时调用语音证据;其实,这恰恰反过来暴露了该理论在语音和语法上的缺陷,我们在语音对应时可以用语法的不对应证据反驳它,在语法对应时可以用语音不对应反驳它。
5、该理论的确立发生在英国对印度的武力征服之后,把近代欧洲对亚洲的武力征服“延伸”和“扩展”到了数千年之前的所谓“雅利安”时代,其时代背景是很不健康的,存在文化上的二次征服嫌疑。

以上纯属学术观点,供学术同行参考、借鉴、批评。
[庐山童子于2013-12-21 21:52编辑了帖子]
hongwei0315
hongwei0315 总版主
2013-12-22 06:34
板凳#
那个…… LZ是不是真的直接无视我提过两三次的morphological innovation啊?…… 还有我提到过的tree model和wave theory,您是不是也直接无视了啊?…… 有意无意地,您直接站在了wave theory的阵营里,然后就一直再指责tree model,我第一次提到wave theory的时候就说过,二者需要结合起来,才能从历史比较语言学的角度得到比较合适的结论和解释。语音对应不是同源关系的唯一决定性因素,甚至有部分学者强调,仅存在语音对应甚至都不适合作为判定依据。

我个人不认为是“循环论证”,系统的音系对应的解释是——可能源自共同原始语,到这里就没了啊,后面的是怎么出来的?是否源自共同的原始语是需要论证的啊,怎么会“因为它们源自同一母语,所以它们的语音对应”?没有论证怎么知道“因为它们源自同一母语”??

刻意回避,又是怎么说?经过比较合适的论证得到的相对确定的系属分类,同源词的对应关系不该是少数啊,只有distant relationship的论证才会是少数对应啊……

从来不是两面啊,系统的音系对应是起点,morphological innovation是关键,本来就不是割裂的,语言的几层要素为什么偏偏要割裂开来呢?每个层面都要处理,只不过处理的结果,那一层面是决定性的,这些才是需要甄别的啊。

至于殖民与否,在现在这个时代,没什么值得纠结的。研究的对象是语言,语言背后的文化意义究竟有多大,这个不是历史比较语言学的任务,也不是应该纠结的范畴。所以,我意识到,您又一次地无视了我提过的linguistic paleontology。我在有关语义的讨论中就提到过了的……
庐山童子
庐山童子 铁十字骑士
2013-12-22 11:41
4#
linguistic paleontology
Warning! The following article is from The Great Soviet Encyclopedia (1979). It might be outdated or ideologically biased

a linguistic and subsidiary historical discipline that uses linguistic data to derive information about the history and geographical location of the speakers of a particular language. Linguistic paleontology also aims to obtain information about the material and spiritual culture of the speakers in the preliterary period. The term was introduced by the Swiss linguist A. Pictet in Les Origines indo-européennes ou les Aryas primitifs: Essai de paléontologie linguistique (vols. 1–2, 1859–63).

Linguistic paleontology makes use of three types of linguistic facts. (1) Words and roots of preliterary languages, such as protolanguages, are reconstructed by etymological and comparative-historical linguistic methods. The semantic content of these words and roots provides information about a culture or the natural environment of an ethnic group. For example, the presence in Common Indo-European of a well-developed livestock-breeding terminology, farming terms, and names for containers contrasts with the almost total absence of names for metals; consequently, Common Indo-European is assigned to the Neolithic period.

(2) The study of borrowings in preliterary languages indicates the simultaneous existence of different ancient ethnic groups; it also indicates their cultural links and often their geographical proximity. For example, several dozen borrowings from Semitic in Common Indo-European suggest the simultaneous existence and geographical closeness of the ethnoses. Judging from Indo-European-Semitic-Kartvelian cultural ties, the most ancient Indo-European community must have been in Asia Minor, later resettling in southeastern and central Europe. The contemporaneity and geographical proximity of the Finno-Ugric and Indo-Iranian linguistic communities has also been established.

(3) The linguistic study of toponyms yields information on the ancient dispersal of ethnic groups.

Indo-European linguistic paleontology (the science of Indo-European antiquities) made significant progress in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Worthy of mention are B. Delbrück’s Die indogermanischen Verwandtschaftsnamen (Indo-Germanic Kinship Terms; 1889) and O. Schrader’s Sprachvergleichung und Urgeschichte (Comparative Linguistics and Prehistory; 1883). The skeptical attitude toward linguistic paleontology that was widespread in the 1930’s and 1940’s was due to the methodologically immature approach of science to comparative-historical linguistics. More recently, linguistic paleontology began employing precise semantic reconstruction methods that treat whole semantic systems instead of separate words and take historical-cultural and comparative-ethnological data into account. Linguistic paleontology is now being used successfully for Indo-European, Semitic, Uralic, and other linguistic material and, with great reliability, for the study of later periods, such as Common Slavic and Old Germanic.
nemecko
nemecko 白银十字骑士
2013-12-22 13:10
5#
对,就像我前面提到过的,
汉语:花(有些南方方言读fa) 英语:flower 意大利语:fiore 西班牙语:flores
很明显,这只是“普通话”和“罗马腔”的区别而已,而在koenen一词里,我们可以很清晰的看到“德国腔”仍然遵循着“汉语腔”的“可能”一词的原音和原意。
nemecko
nemecko 白银十字骑士
2013-12-22 13:18
6#
受LZ启发,接下来我想去搜集一下资料,试着探讨一下希腊语和夏威夷语这两个“岛语”的联系、格陵兰语和梵语的关联以及德语和克丘亚语的微妙联系,在为国内学术界带来新鲜空气的同时,尽力挖掘出格里木定律的漏洞。
庐山童子
庐山童子 铁十字骑士
2013-12-22 14:52
8#
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_language
 he Hawaiian language (Hawaiian: ʻŌlelo Hawaiʻi)[3] is a Polynesian language that takes its name from Hawaiʻi, the largest island in the tropical North Pacific archipelago where it developed. Hawaiian, along with English, is an official language of the state of Hawaii. King Kamehameha III established the first Hawaiian-language constitution in 1839 and 1840.
For various reasons, including Territorial legislation establishing English as the official language in schools, the number of native speakers of Hawaiian gradually decreased during the period from the 1830s to the 1950s. Hawaiian was essentially displaced by English on six of seven inhabited islands. As of 2001, native speakers of Hawaiian amounted to under 0.1% of the statewide population. Linguists are worried about the fate of this and other endangered languages.[4][5]
Nevertheless, from about 1949 to the present, there has been a gradual increase in attention to, and promotion of, the language. Public Hawaiian-language immersion preschools called Pūnana Leo were started in 1984; other immersion schools followed soon after. The first students to start in immersion preschool have now graduated from college and many are fluent Hawaiian speakers. The federal government acknowledged this development. For example the Hawaiian National Park Language Correction Act of 2000 changed the names of several national parks in Hawaiʻi observing the Hawaiian spelling.[6]
A pidgin or creole language spoken in Hawaiʻi is Hawaiian Pidgin (or Hawaii Creole English, HCE). It should not be mistaken for the Hawaiian language nor for a dialect of English.
The Hawaiian alphabet has 13 letters, five vowels (long and short) and eight consonants, one of them being a glottal stop(called ʻokina in Hawaiian).
庐山童子
庐山童子 铁十字骑士
2013-12-22 14:54
9#
Hawaiian Phrase Book.pdf
附件名称/大小 下载次数 最后更新
Hawaiian Phrase Book.part1.rar (1424KB)  4 2013-12-22 14:53
Hawaiian Phrase Book.part2.rar (1424KB)  9 2013-12-22 14:54
Hawaiian Phrase Book.part3.rar (1424KB)  10 2013-12-22 14:54
Hawaiian Phrase Book.part4.rar (1424KB)  10 2013-12-22 14:54
Hawaiian Phrase Book.part5.rar (1424KB)  11 2013-12-22 14:54
Hawaiian Phrase Book.part6.rar (608KB)  3 2013-12-22 14:54
hongwei0315
hongwei0315 总版主
2013-12-23 03:57
10#
庐山童子:wave theory太宽泛,适用于任何有联系的语言之间,无论是否存在所谓亲属关系,所以不值得一提;

morphological innovation不大明白什么意思,请指点。
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怎么回不值得一提呢?wave theory处理的就是您一直在质疑的到底是不是共同原始语的问题啊。几种古老的语言,相互影响,导致融合成了一个奇怪的混合语,这种混合语乃至其他古老语言分别衍生出不同的后代语言,于是,这些后代语言之间就存在相互联系的共性,于是,所谓的共同原始语就不存在了。您一直纠结的问题,不就是这个模型么?
至于,morphological innovation,是一个很重要的历史比较语言学的标准,有兴趣可以参考Hetzron的相关文章,他为历史比较语言学理论做出过重要的贡献。比较新的观点主张,判定亲属关系最重要最有决定性的因素是“词法”且是“创新”,其他的(语音层面、句法层面)共性与联系、其他类型(如shared retention等)的共性与联系,都居次要地位。
庐山童子
庐山童子 铁十字骑士
2013-12-23 10:03
11#
明白了,wave theory 终于把“原始母语”和“原始混合语”混为一谈了。
照这个说法,过不了不久,全世界所有的语言都混合在一起,都变成亲属语言了,因为对于几千年后的人们而言,今天的“现代语言”就是“古老语言”。
wave theory在表面支持Tree theory的时候,实际上埋葬了Tree theory.
hongwei0315
hongwei0315 总版主
2013-12-23 14:23
13#
庐山童子:明白了,wave theory 终于把“原始母语”和“原始混合语”混为一谈了。
照这个说法,过不了不久,全世界所有的语言都混合在一起,都变成亲属语言了,因为对于几千年后的人们而言,今天的“现代语言”就是“古老语言”。
wave theo...
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wave和tree其实是对立的…… 我个人不认为有支持。一个强调共同原始语分化,一个强调若干语言接触的影响。个人认为二者都不合适,而是需要在一定的时候折中结合处理,有些语言之前可能接触影响更大,而有些很明显是分化的结果。
lidongbin
lidongbin 青铜十字骑士
2013-12-30 15:39
14#
604692228:FS GO HR VF FI GR GK FE KU BN VK
JO PK UF FE VF OC FO JH MK CC VQ
ML JH BI UG KL MJ MH CO KL LP DQ
JO GE NG SZ SD GE NP ...
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下次饿用密码回答了呗,没几个人能看懂。
这儿问题我也用密码回复你一下吧

KH DL CH BG VS BK KI ML MI LO
JO KI NG BU NI ML NV DW XI BE
MI KO LU YT VI NU BG BV SW VV
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