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[语言交流]【原创】【坑】赫拉克利特残篇文言试译

楼主#
更多 发布于:2013-03-15 12:44
欢迎拍砖~

(希腊文及英文主要来源:《赫拉克利特著作残篇》,广西师大出版社,2007)





大道虽恒,未闻者每不能知,与闻者亦每不能解。万物匹道,吾执其实而察之,然人之闻
吾言、观吾行者,犹莫能指万物之所是而辨之,茫茫然如未吾闻者也。其余则寤而罔其作,
如寐而忘其梦。


But of this account, which holds forever, people forever prove
uncomprehending, both before they have heard it and when once they have heard
it. For, although all things happen in accordance with this account, they are
like people without experience when they experience words and deeds such as I
set forth, distinguishing <as I do> each thing according to <its> real
constitution, i.e., pointing out how it is. The rest of mankind, however, fail
to be aware of what they do after they wake up just as they forget what they
do while asleep.




(τοῦ δὲ) λόγου τοῦδ' ἐόντος ἀεὶ ἀξύνετοι γίνονται ἄνθρωποι καὶ πρόσθεν ἢ
ἀκοῦσαι καὶ ἀκούσαντες τὸ πρῶτον· γινομένων γὰρ (πάντων) κατὰ τὸν λόγον τόνδε
ἀπείροισιν ἐοίκασι, πειρώμενοι καὶ ἐπέων καὶ ἔργων τοιούτων, ὁκοίων ἐγὼ
διηγεῦμαι κατὰ φύσιν διαιρέων ἕκαστον καὶ φράζων ὅκως ἔχει. τοὺς δὲ ἄλλους
ἀνθρώπους λανθάνει ὁκόσα ἐγερθέντες ποιοῦσιν, ὅκωσπερ ὁκόσα εὕδοντες
ἐπιλανθάνονται





…… 是故必也从乎大同。夫道,大同者也,而众忖之以已意。That is why one must
follow that which is <common> [i.e., universal. For 'common' means
'universal']. Though the account is common, the many live, however, as though
they had a private understanding.





日广一足。[The sun's] breadth is <that> of a human foot. (注云:此赫氏之刺也。)





以形之乐为乐者,如谓牛之乐于食薇。[Heraclitus said that, ] if happiness
consisted in the pleasures of the body, we should call oxen happy whenever
they come across bitter vetch to eat.





污于血而徒濯以血者,犹陷于涂而濯以涂者也。人见是行,必谓其狂,而况祷于尸者乎。
其人也,若夫既不知天,复不近王,徒与木石言者。


They vainly <try to> purify themselves with blood when they are defiled <with
it>! - <which is> as if one who had stepped into mud should <try to> wash
himself off with mud! He would be thought mad, were any man to notice him so
doing. Furthermore, they pray to these statues! - <which is> as though one
were to <try to> carry on a conversation with houses, without any recognition
of who gods and heroes <really> are.







日也者,日日新。The sun is [not only, as Heracalitus says,] new each day [but
forever continuously new].







万物成烟则鼻窍辨之。If everything that exists should become smoke, nostrils
would <still> distinguish <them>.





反者相合。和乐出于异(音)。万物生于争。(注云:争者,并作也)[Heraclitus said
that] what opposes unites, [and that the finest attunement stems from things
bearing in opposite directions, and that all things come about by strife].


τὸ ἀντίξουν συμφέρον [καὶ ἐκ τῶν διαφερόντων καλλίστην ἁρμοvίαν καὶ πάντα κατ᾽
ἔριν γίvεσθαι.


—— 亚里士多德《尼各马可伦理学》 Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics 8.2.1155b4





驴其恶金乎。人之所好,异乎犬马。[For the pleasures of horse, dog, and man are
different things, according to Heraclitus, who says that] donkeys would prefer
refuse to gold.





圆缺(能)一聚也,聚散(能)一和也,和乱(能)一齐也。万物浑一,一生万物。
Things grasped together: things whole, things not whole; <something> being
brought together, <something> being separated; <something> consonant,
<something> dissonant. Out of all things <comes?> one thing, and out of one
thing all things.


十一


畜非鞭,不能牧。Every animal is driven to pasture with a blow, [as Heraclitus
says].


十二


一河之水,涉而每异。As they step into the same rivers, different and <still>
different waters flow upon them.


十三


豕之好浊,甚于清波。Pigs enjoy filth more than they do pure water.


十四


[以弗所赫拉克利特氏示兆于何人? ]夜游者、巫卜者、祀酒神者、行秘仪者也。 [此四者
赫氏怖之以身后事而兆之以火。 ]盖其所行,乱仪礼也。


[For whom does Heraclitus of Ephesus prophesy? For] night-wandering wizards,
Bacchants, Lenaeans, initiates. [These are the ones he threatens with things
that come after death; for these he prophesies fire. For] the initiation-rites
accepted among mankind they perform(are initiated into?) in an impious manner.


[τίσι δὴ μαντεύεται Ἡράκλειτο ϛ ὁ Ἐφέσιος;] vυκτιπόλοις, μάγοις, βάκχοις,
λήvαις, μύσταις· [τούτοις ἀπειλεῖ τὰ μετὰ θάνατον, τούτοις μαντεύεται τὸ πῦρ·]
τὰ γὰρ νομιζόμενα κατ᾽ ἀνθρώπους μυστήρια ἀνιερωστὶ μυοῦνται.


—— 亚历山太的革利免《对异教徒的劝勉》 Clement, the Protrepticus, 22.2


十五


祀酒神者,游吟其私,苟非其祀,其腆谁及?死神其颂,酒神其祀,彼所颂祀,何异之有!


If it were not in Dionysus’ honour that they make a procession and sing a hymn
to <the> shameful parts, their deed would be a most shameful one. But Hades
and Dionysus, for whom they rave and celebrate the festival of the Lenaea, are
<one and> the same!


εἰ μὴ γὰρ Διονύσῳ πομπὴν ἐποιοῦντο καὶ ὕμνεον ᾆσμα αἰδοίοισιν, ἀναιδέστατα
εἴργασται· ὡυτὸς δὲ Ἅιδης καὶ Διόνυσος, ὅτεῳ μαίvοvται καὶ ληναΐζουσιν.


十六


天听不息,何所遁也。How would one escape the notice of that which never sets?


十七


不识所遇,不察所历,而自以为知之者,众矣。


Many people do not “understand the sorts of thing they encounter”! Nor do they
recognize them <even> after they have had experience <of them> - though they
themselves think <they recognize them>.


十八


不期之事,难察难与,故期不期以察焉。


If <he> doesn’t expect <the> unexpected, <he> will not discover <it>; for <it>
is difficult to discover and intractable.


十九


无所不信者,既不知听,复不知言也。


[Reproving certain people for their credulousness, Heraclitus says:] <They
are> people who do not know how to listen or how to speak.


二十


既生矣,惟安于生而应其劫也。又遗嗣,复历劫也。


[Heraclitus at any rate is clearly abusing birth on those occasions when he
says:] Once born, they consent to live and face their fate[s] [or rather:
“fall asleep”], and leave behind them children to become <in their turn
subject to their particular> fate[s].


[Ἡράκλειτος γοῦν κακίζων φαίνεται τὴν γένεσιν, ἐπειδὰν φῇ·] γενόμενοι (被生的)
ζώειν(生活) ἐθέλουσι (愿意) μόρους (将命运) τ᾽ ἔχειν (拥有) , [μᾶλλον
δὲ ἀναπαύεσθαι,] καὶ 8παῖδας (将孩子) καταλείπουσι (留下) μόρους(将命运)
γενέσθαι(成为) .




二十一


寤之所见,惟死也;寐之所见,惟眠也。( “眠” 或作“梦 ”,或作“ 生”)


[Even Heraclitus does not call birth death, when he says:] Death is those
things we see once we are awake; sleep those things <we see> while we are
sleeping.


[οὐχὶ καὶ Ἡράκλειτος θάνατον τὴν γένεσιν καλεῖ ... ἐν οἷς φησι·] θάνατός(死)
ἐστιν(是) ὁκόσα (多如……的) ἐγερθέντες (醒来时) ὁρέομεν (我们看见) ,
ὁκόσα(多如 ……的) δὲ εὕδοντες (睡觉时) ὕπνος (沉睡) .


To be continued...

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lloydyuanlloydy... liumx2000liumx2...
沙发#
发布于:2013-03-16 20:35
译海之深如语言之渊。吾等当游。
板凳#
发布于:2013-03-16 22:30
liumx2000:The Obscure...

http://www.heraclitusfragments.com/
回到原帖
多谢,收藏之~
地板#
发布于:2013-03-16 22:54
一古斋主:多谢,收藏之~回到原帖
厉害 收藏了 日后当阅读翻译练习用 话说楼主学了多久古希腊语??
4#
发布于:2013-03-16 23:17
lloydyuan:厉害 收藏了 日后当阅读翻译练习用 话说楼主学了多久古希腊语??回到原帖
惭愧,断断续续五六年,水平还是“完全离不开字典”级的……
5#
发布于:2013-03-17 08:34
一古斋主:惭愧,断断续续五六年,水平还是“完全离不开字典”级的……回到原帖
已经很不容易了 毕竟是古希腊语 我的话才学了一年不到 得向您学习呀!!!!您是在研究还是因为兴趣?
6#
发布于:2013-03-17 09:08
lloydyuan:已经很不容易了 毕竟是古希腊语 我的话才学了一年不到 得向您学习呀!!!!您是在研究还是因为兴趣?回到原帖
兴趣……如果是研究进展就不会如此缓慢了……
7#
发布于:2013-03-17 22:06
一古斋主:兴趣……如果是研究进展就不会如此缓慢了……回到原帖
不过已经很不错了 能用古文翻译本来就不是一件容易的事 何况还是古希腊语
8#
发布于:2013-03-18 08:18
楼主精神可嘉。但译文近乎现代文言。信乎。
9#
发布于:2013-03-18 12:49
Qasoqaanga:楼主精神可嘉。但译文近乎现代文言。信乎。回到原帖
然。浅易文言而已,但求语法正确,古字我自己都认不全,何况拿来翻译……求佳译。
10#
发布于:2013-03-19 08:40
有空时瓦罗仔细拜读一下。happiness与pleasures都翻译成乐,不妥。
11#
发布于:2013-03-19 10:33
Qasoqaanga:有空时瓦罗仔细拜读一下。happiness与pleasures都翻译成乐,不妥。回到原帖


有道理。


“以形之乐为乐者,如谓牛之乐于食薇。”这一句只存拉丁语的转述,其文为:
Heraclitus dixit quod Si felicitas esset in delectationibus corporis, boves felices diceremus, cum inveniant orobum ad comedendum.

讨论:


一、felicitas、felices等,或译为“喜”? 比如“若人喜于身安乐, 牛遇薇食当谓喜”之类的……


二、参考《牛津拉丁语词典》和《古希腊语汉语词典》,orobum是拉丁语化的希腊语单词ὄροβος ,拉丁文学名为Vicia Ervilia,汉语称“巢菜属植物:野豌豆”。此种语境下,文言当用何语?

[一古斋主于2013-03-19 11:18编辑了帖子]
12#
发布于:2013-03-19 21:00
Si felicitas esset in delectationibus corporis, boves felices diceremus, cum inveniant orobum ad comedendum.
若幸运存乎爱之躯体。我等可谓其与福牛寻至可食之豆苗相仿佛矣。(或,我等可谓此乃福牛寻至可食之豆苗矣)

一起学习。
13#
发布于:2013-03-20 11:33
Qasoqaanga:Si felicitas esset in delectationibus corporis, boves felices diceremus, cum inveniant orobum ad comedendum.
若幸运存乎爱之躯体。...
回到原帖
四个疑问一起讨论:
一、corporis为生格,似乎当为“躯体之爱”?
二、felices是boves的定语还是表语?(dicere既可作to say亦可作to call解,不从英译解释为to call、以felices作为boves的表语——瓦罗大大这样解释有什么特别的理由么?)
三、cum作“when”解还是其他意思?
四、译文是否需要展示felicitas和felices的同根关系?
14#
发布于:2013-03-21 08:27
amor patriae 是爱国而不是祖国的爱。
boves felices diceremus 直译当然是我们认为牛很开心。
cum可以表示原因。
拉丁文同根字在汉语里不一定是同根。终端语言是什么,就要服从什么,否则不要翻译了。
瓦罗是意译。文言崇尚简约。
友情提醒,反对用第三语言。面对拉丁文翻译,英文汉文倭文一个级别。
15#
发布于:2013-03-21 10:57
Qasoqaanga:amor patriae 是爱国而不是祖国的爱。
boves felices diceremus 直译当然是我们认为牛很开心。
cum可以表示原因。
拉丁文同根字在汉语里不一定是同根。终端语言是什么,就要服从什么,否则不要翻译了。
瓦罗是意...
回到原帖
俺觉得,“爱国”是动宾短语而非偏正短语“爱之国”,amor patriae译作“对祖国的爱”并无不确只是啰嗦,翻译成“爱之祖国”略显不顺,“爱之躯体”亦然。
关于翻译中是否体现felices作表语与是否体现felicitas和felices同根二事,实际上是一个问题——原文中felicitas和felices都是表语且又同根,所以能给予读者强烈的印象,令读者抓住问题的关键点——而译文中将这些关系都破坏了的话,反而可能会变得晦涩难懂歧义丛生。
对于第三语言的问题,在“英文汉文倭文一个级别”这一点上俺与瓦罗大大意见一致,不过结论相反——俺正是因此认为,一段拉丁文能在哪种现代通用语言中更方便地体现,就用哪种语言好了,时态、语气、介词、连词、关系代词、关系副词之类的用汉语辗转说明未必如用句法结构相近的欧洲语言来说明,而拉丁文中各种实词,于我而言,用汉语就更精确。一己之见,瓦罗大大勿要见怪。
[一古斋主于2013-03-21 11:43编辑了帖子]
16#
发布于:2013-03-21 14:12
不知斋主有没有听说过 objective genetive。这种属格名词只能做宾语。amor patriae只能是爱国,其他解释都是错误,如果语法书是错的话。
汉文不能迁就拉丁文同根词。universalis和universitas该如何体现同根词呢,如果在句中。
讨论不需要顾及谁,各抒己见。瓦罗也是初学者,错误曲解难免。一起学习哈。
17#
发布于:2013-03-22 16:20
Qasoqaanga:不知斋主有没有听说过 objective genetive。这种属格名词只能做宾语。amor patriae只能是爱国,其他解释都是错误,如果语法书是错的话。
汉文不能迁就拉丁文同根词。universalis和universitas该如何...
回到原帖
嗯,关于同根词乃至双关语、文字游戏之类,当然不是总能在目标语言中找到对等的存在,只是如果有的话,尽可能地体现一下(比如felicitas也译作福,大概也是可以的吧)。


关于objective genetive,这个俺以前的确不清楚(感谢瓦罗大大的提示),所以学习了一下。在Allen&Greenough的《New Latin Gramamr》给出了一个我认为不错的例子:amor patris。因为patris是人,可以施事也可是受事,所以存在以下理解:
一、父亲所感受到的爱 love felt by a father
二、父爱、父亲所给予的爱 a father's love (subjective genetive)
三、对父亲的爱 love towards a father (objective genetive)
对于patriae而言,既不能感受爱也不能给予爱,所以amor patriae只能是爱国(或对祖国的爱)。
对于delectationibus corporis而言,似乎上述三种解释:“躯体所受的愉悦”、“躯体发出的愉悦”或者“对躯体的喜悦”皆可说得通,而区别似乎在于对delectationibus作名词性的理解(愉悦)或者动词性的理解(喜悦)。关于这一点,还请瓦罗大大分析一下……
18#
发布于:2013-03-22 22:03
瓦罗以为动宾的逻辑性强一些。愉悦身体。
Heraclitus dixit quod Si felicitas esset in delectationibus corporis, boves felices diceremus, cum inveniant orobum ad comedendum.
海氏曰。若夫福即愉悦躯体。则吾人可谓牛至乐矣。于寻至可食豆苗之时。
19#
发布于:2013-03-22 22:57
Qasoqaanga:瓦罗以为动宾的逻辑性强一些。愉悦身体。
Heraclitus dixit quod Si felicitas esset in delectationibus corporis, boves felices diceremus, cum i...
回到原帖
善。
又及:此条根据注释,不太像赫拉克利特的口气,反倒像是柏拉图或者亚里士多德的口气,当然也没有明显的否定性证据证明这一条非赫氏所说。
又及之二:其它原文/译文也请瓦罗大大及众人没事时批判批判,加深理解哈。
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